Also through my studies i’ve noticed that in all actuality buddhism puts more of an obligation on helping others.Since in buddhism we believe in no-self and the interconnectedness of all beings we have to help eachother since you are me and i am you and …i don’t know the lyrics to that beatles song.

Christians don’t share this belief, not to say because they don’t believe the same things they’re wrong – of course not. I mean obviously theres more than one answer to this question that religion in general tries to solve, theres a great deal more grey area than ‘right and wrong’.

It just hit me a little funny that Mike said this so naturally i had to add my two cents.

I believe something of a fusion between the two would be just what’s needed for the west. That will happen; Buddhism has split and evolved many times since the days of the Buddha, and it will continue to do so. Unfortunately, as you said in a previous post, it may take a very long time to do so.

I suspect your thoughts on individualism vs. group identity isn’t limited to Buddhism. I think it’s probably apparent to Christian churches as well. How many of us know Christians who haven’t been to church in years? I know back in my own “Christian period,” I went every Sunday. It was great; we sang songs, took classes, prayed together, and once in a while had a social event. The community aspect of it all was great, and helped keep the “meaning” of the faith in mind. I do miss that.

I think we all realize the value of joining a church or sangha, but our individualism leads us to believe that it’s not really necessary to do so. Making a choice like Zen makes individualism even more justifiable.

And I also agree that we’ll be seeing some of these ideas covered again in the Daily Buddhism real soon now

You make a good point about the “spiritual absences” of the west. An optimist would say there was a an empty bowl waiting to be filled with The Buddha’s teaching. I am a little more of a pessimist and think that there is a layer of clear plastic wrap over the bowl, it looks empty, but nothing can get it. I see that wrap as the hyper-individualism we see in the west. People fail to see the advantage, fun, joy and sense of belonging an individual gets by working in a group. I wonder if it is easier for those form the eastern cultures that are still more community oriented to let go of Self? Interesting question for Brian to explore. Think part of this individualism has to do with the collapse of most of the community ties that come with the unlimited mobility we now have. I spent 14 years in the military and have to say it was among the happiest times in my life. Why? Because you were part of a large group with common goals working as a selfless group. Leave aside for your thought what those goals might be, I am dealing with the concept. You could get the same feeling from the Peace Corps or community organizing or being a Franciscan helping the poor in South America.

As I said I have just started this journey. I am looking for a tradition that I can settle into like a good zafu. The Theravada is monastic centric and more focused on the individual seeking. I really like Mahayana idea of the Bodhisattva but do not feel comfortable with the “religious” trappings of Tibetan Buddhism, All practices have great universal ideas. It is just the cultural trappings that do not appeal to me. I am not a Tibetan or a Thai. My cultural affinity is western. I think scholastic modality of Theravada appeals to the Greek academic side of the western cultures combined with the Mahayana worldly inclusiveness of the bodhisattva. That is where I would like to go.

I do not know if this is just ramblings. I am still sorting out ideas.

Peace
Lonnie

Nice response and sensitively observed. The last bit- on the arrival of a new tradition in a novice country- is accurate.

It raises the issue of what influnece will a generally spiritually absent group of societies (the “West”)can bring to classical buddhism? China of course was fertile ground for a broadly dynamic influence: Taoism, Confusianism. A blending of ideas can produce a creative stimulus as in the process of chan (zen) buddhism.

But those factors do not appear to be prsent in the West, as you indicate with the decline of the Catholic monastic orders.

Just thought from a curious heart.

This is just my 2 cents form someone just starting out on this journey.

Peace

What is important to remember is the critique which sees Monasticism as useless, unproductive, producing bone-idle men, is offered from a particular tradition within a Protestant, Capitalist work ethic frame of reference. Within that tradition, the criticism may be valid. Outside it, it must be deemed offensive, if not inapplicable.

No Catholic would view Monasticism as not central to Catholicism. Likewise, Buddhist must revere the relationship of Monastacism to the Sangha.

I’m interested to know if the criticism of the Thai monks was due to them absorbing other values. It could also be true that administratively the Monasteries in many States do not meet classical expectations (a point that Schapiro made in relation to Burmese monastries during the 60s)and if this is so, then it maynot be issues stricly to do with meditation for long hours (in Burma, Schapiro said Monks seldom did that); but bad organisation, which ultimately may have something to do with contemporary State politics in Thailand itself.

However in a nutshell,

Thai monks being Theravadan are more inclined to devote their time to personal enlightenemnt as that is the primary objective of their beliefs in attaining Nirvana,
They are setting an example to others of what can be achieved and as you said the local lay people understand this and respect their commitment.
They attempt to reach Nirvana with the intent of others following their example.

In Mahayana, the objective is more to help others, and by doing so reach Nirvana.

I initially found this aspect of Thervadan Buddhism selfish, but on reflection it comes down to a simple difference:

I go and hopefully you can follow me now I have shown the way.

or

I help you to reach my level, and we all go together.

Neither way is better (In my humble opinion) it is a personal or cultural preference.

I hope my explanation helps in some way.

regards
Colin…..